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BrianY 02 R/T
Dodge Dakota
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5/07/2003
18:45:31
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 Subject: Ran my best ET with the brakes on
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I have a problem with the converter locking up at wot. as soon as it hits 3rd gear the converter locks and it feels like it hit a brick wall. Every time I complained about it I was told that that is not suposed to happen and i was imagining it. Then a co worker told me that taping the break peddal enough to turn on the break lights will shut off the lock up. So I tried that and it pulled 1 tenth and 3 mph faster.
Has any one with an 02 R/T had this problem, and is there a fix for it? I know the truck will run Quicker if I can just shut it off all together
Brian
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SXT4ME
Dodge Dakota
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5/07/2003
22:14:08
| RE: Ran my best ET with the brakes on
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Thats weird, I used to lock up my converter on my Grand National on purpose. I ran a converter lock up switch to make my converter lock up as soon as I hit third gear. Converters are designed to not lock up under full throttle to avoid over heating them. Something is wrong with your R/T my friend.
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SXT4ME
Dodge Dakota
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5/07/2003
22:17:44
| RE: Ran my best ET with the brakes on
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By the way, my car would pull like a mofo on the top end with the converter locked up. 18lbs of boost did not hurt either.
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BrianY 02 R/T
Dodge Dakota
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5/08/2003
22:09:10
| RE: Ran my best ET with the brakes on
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Well I cant see how locking the converter would help your et but like you said 18 lbs of boost dont hurt.(thats alot of boost) In my truck it feels like it hits a 4th gear with in a second after hiting third. I want to take it back to the dealer and say fix it but I cant say to them "well when Im at the drag strip" to explain my problem. I can beat alot of 14 and 13 second cars to the 1/8th but they walk all over me to the 1/4. I need to figure this out and fix it otherwise Im going to sell it and buy somthing else. Maybe a Grand National. always liked those cars
Brian
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SXT4ME
Dodge Dakota
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5/09/2003
00:18:14
| RE: Ran my best ET with the brakes on
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I don't know much about transmissions but I do know this much. The purpose of a converter locking up is to increase fuel economy because the transmission is "locked up". Another words it is no longer slipping. It is a then a 1 to 1 ratio. Just like a standard. Transmissions are always slipping unless the converter is locked. With the converter locked you are also increasing your torque multiplication. That is all I know. But one thing I do know is if you ask any performance tranny shop they will also tell you that locking up the converter under full throttle will improve acceleration. The reason the transmission does not lock up under full throttle is due to the increase in the torque it also increases the heat quite a bit and will wreck it.
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SXT4ME
Dodge Dakota
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5/09/2003
00:21:28
| RE: Ran my best ET with the brakes on
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Maybe you car is shifting into 4th gear too early. Do you look at the tach? If your truck short shifts into 4th it will fall on its face. Do a search but maybe you need to do a tv cable adjustment.
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Anthony G
Dodge Dakota
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5/09/2003
09:12:54
| RE: Ran my best ET with the brakes on
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It's to be expected, first your moving at what 70 mph when it hits 3rd? Anything after second the gear ratio start to get taller between gears, thus making that much harder for the engine to get up in RPM's to make power, not to mention the air resistance getting stronger too. Unless you start getting some mods don't expect to be screaming down the quarter mile. Hell if your dipping into the low 3k after hitting 3rd gear the torque managment could be hindering power too with that death flash.
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BrianY 02 R/T
Dodge Dakota
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5/09/2003
18:27:38
| RE: Ran my best ET with the brakes on
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The truck is not hiting 4th gear. All the runs are with od turned off. Trust me the converter is locking up too early.
You lose torque multiplication with the converter locked up.
The way we tested this is buy gently aplying the brake pedal while in 3rd gear and the tack jumped up 500 rpm. Not to mention 3 mph faster in the 1/4. When you trigger the brake switch it sends a signal to the pcm to shut off the lock up.
Im not expecting killer 1/4 mile ets but when I see other R/Ts running 15.20 off the show room floor, it pisses me off that mine went 16.00. I have managed to knock 3 tenths off that by moding the intake but Im not spending a cent on it untill I get this problem solved.
FYI Ive been drag racing for over 15 years so I do have a bit of knowlage of how things work.
Brian
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BrianY 02 R/T
Dodge Dakota
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5/09/2003
18:47:17
| RE: Ran my best ET with the brakes on
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I may have knowlage of racing but I sure dont know how to spell.
Sorry for all the erers errors erores ah hell, you know what I mean:)
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SXT4ME
Dodge Dakota
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5/09/2003
20:46:15
| RE: Ran my best ET with the brakes on
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Hey Brian,
You are out right wrong! You increase torque multiplication with the converter locked up. I know that tapping the brake will unlock your converter at CRUISING SPEED. The converter will not lock up under full throttle unless you have a lock up switch of some type. Again I will say this, if your converter is locking up under full throttle than you have a tranny problem. I don't want to get into a pissing contest but you should do a little more investiging into this topic and you will see I am right. Congrats on your fifteen years or drag racing but I have you beat by a long shot. I am 40 and have been going to New England Dragway with my bikes and cars for 24 years.
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BrianY 02 R/T
Dodge Dakota
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5/09/2003
21:07:36
| RE: Ran my best ET with the brakes on
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If you have been going to the drags that long than you know what it feels like to skip a gear(2nd to 4th etc) Thats what my truck feels like. I know I have a problem with the trans. That is why I posted it on here hoping some one could help me solve it. Weather it is engine management or a problem with the trans itself. I wont argue the torque multply with you
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HSKR
Dodge Dakota
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5/09/2003
21:12:10
| RE: Ran my best ET with the brakes on
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Coming from another R?T owner(two to be exact), with the over drive off, the converter WILL lock up in 3rd gear at WOT on our transmissions, and you WILL get better torque multiplication with the converter UNLOCKED. Especially with the Mopar converter installed with a higher torque multiplication than stock. The easiest way I have found to keep the converter from locking up in 3rd gear at the track is to cylce(on/off) the OD button once it shifts into 3rd. This will keep it out of OD, and will also keep the converter unlocked. As stated before, the converter locks up for gas mileage reasons, and with the OD off, 3rd gear is the highest gear so the PCM locks up the converter in 3rd with OD off for better gas mileage. Don't listen to SXT4ME, listen to other R?T owners who have personally experienced what you have, and are not trying to compare a Dakota to a turbo Buick.
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SXT4ME
Dodge Dakota
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5/10/2003
00:47:17
| RE: Ran my best ET with the brakes on
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I am also a EX-R/T owner. I sold that clam because it was too slow. It was a 2001. The converter will NOT lock under full throttle in any car. They can not take the amount of heat that is generated. Think about it HKSR. What happens when a converter locks up? You get the effect of a 1:1 ratio. What does that mean? Your trans. is no longer slipping. What does that mean? It means maximum torque multiplication. Which means LOWER ET'S.
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BrianY 02 R/T
Dodge Dakota
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5/10/2003
00:51:17
| RE: Ran my best ET with the brakes on
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HSKR
Thanks for the tip. I will try that next time at the track. At this point in time Im willing to try anything. I even tried taping a ground wire to the brake switch but all that resulted in was a few blown fuses.
This is why I posted this problem on this forum. To get help. Thanks
Brian
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Daksmack
Dodge Dakota
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5/10/2003
09:08:20
| RE: Ran my best ET with the brakes on
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quote "The way we tested this is buy gently aplying the brake pedal while in 3rd gear and the tack jumped up 500 rpm. "
If your jumping up 500 rpm no wonder your et went down. Torque multiplication, yackidy smackidy, 500 rpms higher will give you more torque while locked up than lower rpms while ulocked.
That much rpm difference sounds like its still trying to shift to OD (guessing). Have you tryed to run one with the OD on tho see if its any different?
Dont compare a turbo GN's benifit from lockup to yours. If you got the power you dont want slip (ie, manual trannys). R/T's dont quite have that same torque, so slipping may allow the higher rpms to provide more torque to be available.
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HSKR
Dodge Dakota
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5/10/2003
11:37:28
| RE: Ran my best ET with the brakes on
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Well, the converters do lock up under WOT in third gear with OD off on the 46RE's that we get from the factory. Tested on more than one ocasion on both of my trucks, and on many other R/T owners trucks when I was riding with them. If the converter doesn't lock up, then why do the RPMs drop and motor bog a little at about 4000RPM in 3rd gear with OD off, and jump up 200-300RPM or more when you hit the od on/off button?? And when the RPMs come back up after hitting the switch, it pulls harder??
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Daksmack
Dodge Dakota
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5/10/2003
11:46:00
| RE: Ran my best ET with the brakes on
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I agree...
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BrianY 02 R/T
Dodge Dakota
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5/10/2003
17:53:50
| RE: Ran my best ET with the brakes on
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Daksmack
I cant remember if I have tryed it with the od on. The truck shifts the same way when Im merging on the highway. Usualy I leave it in drive till I get up to highway speed then turn on od. You can feel it shift 3rd than instantly into lock up. I even let my friend make a pass at the track the last time and he noticed the way it locked up. Its raining here this weekend so hopfully the weather will be ok next weekend. I know a guy here who works at dc dealer and he keeps checking for an updated flash.
We will see what happens
Brian
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BrianY 02 R/T
Dodge Dakota
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5/11/2003
02:15:12
| RE: Ran my best ET with the brakes on
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Well I couldnt wait untill next week at the track to try out the on off cycle with the od switch. I found a dry stretch of highway at 1:30 am and tryed it. Now I have no time slip to know for sure if it worked, but it sure as hell felt stronger in 3rd. I didnt feel the converter lock and where it is usualy having a hard time pulling 85 mph, I was well over 90 and still pulling hard. I`ll know next weekend for sure(if it dosnt rain)
Thanks again HSKR
Brian
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MRKNOWITALL
Dodge Dakota
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5/11/2003
19:33:24
| RE: Ran my best ET with the brakes on
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The reason your rpm's increase if you are unlocking the convereter is because the tranny is slipping. A tranny is designed to have a limited amount of slip built into it Guess what though, if your tranny is slipping you are not getting as much power to the wheels as possible. That is why locking the converter IMPROVES your ET. It is simple physics and some day you idiots will understand that. It does not matter if you are driving a GN,Hyundai or R/T. Locking up a converter allows no slipping and maximum power to get to the rear wheels. If you don't believe me just ask Art Carr,B&M or any knowledgeable tranny shop.
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98Durango360
Dodge Dakota
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5/12/2003
13:51:42
| RE: Ran my best ET with the brakes on
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I used to drive an '87 Vette and the cheapest trick you could do to improve ET's is to wire two terminals on the OBDI port to LOCK the converter. The car would pull much harder, but it would also tear up the tranny. I don't see why this would only apply to certain cars. Tranny slippage is simply engine power not making it to the wheels. I'm not sure how this could translate into better acceleration or track times?
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Ginther
Dodge Dakota
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5/12/2003
14:46:33
| RE: Ran my best ET with the brakes on
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I also have a 2002 R/T and have noticed the same lockup manners. Like HSKR said, it's a Dodge thing with these trannys. They feel like they shift twice per gear with the way the convertor locks and unlocks as it shifts up.
I think the reason we dont benefit from full lockup is it bogs the engine down. Yes, you loose a little power to the ground with the slippage, but when the power isn't there at the lower rpm in top gear, what's worse? Putting bogged down, out of the powerband power to the ground, or wasting a little power by letting the convertor slip to help get the engine back in it's powerband.
In stock form the 5.9 gets winded in the big end. It simply can't breathe and doesn't pull that hard in 3rd. Mods help this considerably, but the convertor lockup will still play a part.
And just for the record - I have also done both, the OD button on and off and the brake pedal trick. Both work to stop full lockup, and help ET's.
BrianY - I doubt anything is wrong with your tranny. It's just more noticeable and irritating in stock form. Once you add a few bolt-ons and up the power, it's not as noticeable.
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HSKR
Dodge Dakota
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5/12/2003
22:46:41
| RE: Ran my best ET with the brakes on
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Mrknowitall don't know Dakota R/T's. With keeping the converter from locking up, there is a noticable difference in the butt dyno and at the track. Consitantly at least 1mph faster keeping the converter unlocked using the od on/off trick. Beleive me or not, it works for the Dakota R/T. Also when in 3rd gear above 90mph, if you unlock the TC, the RPMS increase and the truck accelerates faster.
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98Durango360
Dodge Dakota
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5/13/2003
10:25:03
|  RE: Ran my best ET with the brakes on
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Time for Dodge to throw down an RT 6 speed and squash all this TC non-sense. ;-)
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Daksmack
Dodge Dakota
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5/13/2003
12:28:33
| RE: Ran my best ET with the brakes on
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I havent check this out yet, just got the idea. While in the pits, what if you adjusted the brake light switch at your brake pedal to cause the lights to come on.
This might prevent the PCM from locking the converter. Then you dont run the chance of extra friction in the brakes while on a pass.
Just and idea.
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BrianY 02 R/T
Dodge Dakota
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5/16/2003
19:29:45
| RE: Ran my best ET with the brakes on
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Well the track is rained out tonight so I will have to wait another week.
Now to you ppl who think locking up a converter will give maximum power, you would have to be in a very small car with a very deep gear for that to work. MRKNOITALL Your explination of it you may as well not have a transmision, Just run a 1 to 1 gear direct drive from the engine to the diff like a top fuel dragster. Oh wait a sec, You dont have a 7000 hp hemi that you can do that with or do you? I know I dont. This is why transmisions have different gears. Its called torque mutiplication. That is why manual trannys are usually 4gears to 1 to 1 and automatics are only three. Manuals have a clutch that locks so they need the extra gear. Oh well enuff said for now. Thanks to those who have had helpfull hints.
Brian
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SXT4ME
Dodge Dakota
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5/16/2003
21:21:38
| RE: Ran my best ET with the brakes on
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Brian,
You are an effing idiot. You know nothing. Locking a converter is not designed for performance. It is designed to do that for fuel economy and effeciency. By forcing it to lock that is where the increase in performance begins. That is where you achieve a 1to1 ratio. By the way, cars have not had three speed autos for a long time you dildo. They actually have 6 speed autos now so get with the times you fool. Your mind is just to samll to understand the concept of how locking a converter will help. Again, go to Art Carr's web page or any other performance tranny web page and read up.
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SXT4ME
Dodge Dakota
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5/16/2003
22:22:06
| RE: Ran my best ET with the brakes on
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Learn something will you? Go here.
WWW.technicalevolution.com/tcc.htm
WWW.lingenfelter.com/torqueconvt.asp
WWW.bmracing.com/noflash/tech/torque.html
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BrianY 02 R/T
Dodge Dakota
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5/17/2003
01:20:18
| RE: Ran my best ET with the brakes on
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6 5 4 speed whats the 1 to 1 gear on MOST automatics dildo breath? 3rd
what is 1 to 1 on MOST manuals? 4th
It looks like you are the one with somthing to learn. I dont care how long you have been going to the track with your GN or your bike. Your GN is like 3300 lbs to my 4200 lbs in my truck. Trust me, you penis with ears you dont want the converter to lock up early. It drags the engine down.
This will be the last response to any of your mesages
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BrianY 02 R/T
Dodge Dakota
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5/17/2003
01:30:30
| RE: Ran my best ET with the brakes on
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P.S we will let the ETs do all the talking when the track isnt rained out I will post my ET. And just for the record if you look at my original post you will see my point. IT RAN ITS BEST ET WITH THE BRAKES ON. THAT MEENS THE CONVERTER WAS NOT LOCKED UP. 3 MPH FASTER AND 1 TENTH QUICKER. EXPLAIN THAT!
This will now be my last response to your message.
To all the others out there. I am sorry for the rude languge But this guy is pissing me off.
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Dakfiveoh
Dodge Dakota
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5/17/2003
02:05:22
| RE: Ran my best ET with the brakes on
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(Taken from WWW.bmracing.com/noflash/tech/torque.html) "the housing spins right along with the motor. On the output side, the torque converter's turbine is attached to the transmission's input shaft. Inside the torque converter is a stator assembly. It redirects fluid flow, resulting in torque multiplication and torque multiplication is what allows a converter to provide better low-speed acceleration. Most torque converters today will multiply torque by a ratio of at least 2 to 1. For example, if your motor is making 250 lbs.-ft. of torque and your converter is multiplying it by a factor of two, then the transmission will see 500 lbs.-ft. of torque. This can improve a car or truck's acceleration capability substantially"
when a converter locks up it all parts are spinning at the same speed (Impeller, stator, and turbine). equalling a 1:1 ratio. you cannot get multiplication without slipping. on the bottom end of the converters RPM Band multiplication is greatest. however as stator RPM increases the multiplication decreases and becomes less efficient. at this point a locked converter is more efficient. So at the bottom end of the rpm band slipping is good (that is whay a higher stall converter is more desireable for racing. it allows the motor to be higher in the RPM Band before the stator looses its efficiency) however as RPM increases a locked converter is more efficient.
5/0
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