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Zaurusman
GenIII
 
3/08/2002
14:40:04
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 Subject: Intercooler w/o a Blower?
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We all know our Magnum engines run a LOT better in the cooler weather, right? Well, has anyone ever seen an intercooler that doesn't require a blower - is that even possible? Maybe it would be a useful mod on a normally aspirated Dak? Wonder what that would cost...
Any ideas?
--
Zaurusman
'98 RC Red Sport V6 5spd 3.21 15x8's
http://www.tiborsrealm.com/Dakota/Index.htm
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Viper6
Dodge Dakota
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3/08/2002
14:55:55
|  RE: Intercooler w/o a Blower?
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http://www.superchargersonline.com/intercoolers.asp
theres your cost
yes you can run them without a blower, don't know about on the daks tho, I've seen on cars with regular asp.
If your gonna spend, go for air to water, I've heard they are much more effective.
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Zaurusman
GenIII
3/08/2002
15:04:44
| RE: Intercooler w/o a Blower?
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Thanks Viper6. Okay, now, how much are these things reducing the temperature? Are they like air conditioning units that are rated to decrease the temperature a certain number of degrees? I think I'll need to dyno my Dak in various temps to justify those price tags - ouch!
--
Zaurusman
'98 RC Red Sport V6 5spd 3.21 15x8's
http://www.tiborsrealm.com/Dakota/Index.htm
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alex
Dodge Dakota
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3/08/2002
15:07:07
| RE: Intercooler w/o a Blower?
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Nitrous Oxide is (more or less) an intercooler. It doesn't cost that much. Food for thought....
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Viper6
Dodge Dakota
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3/08/2002
15:10:41
| RE: Intercooler w/o a Blower?
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Nitrous oxide? an intercooler!?!
Nitrous oxide is an oxidizer, not an intercooler, intercooler cools intake air, nitrous provides a nice environment for combustables...
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Viper6
Dodge Dakota
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3/08/2002
15:18:12
| RE: Intercooler w/o a Blower?
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The most effective means of reducing forced induction air intake temperatures is by using an air to water aftercooler. Air to water aftercoolers are currently being used by OEMs like Ford and Jaguar for supercharging systems. This superior air cooling technology is proven to reduce air intake temperatures by as much as 200ºF with minimal pressure drop. Air to water aftercoolers provide cooler, denser air charges allowing more timing, more boost, reduced chances of engine damage due to detonation and excellent driveability without the surge problems that are associated with air to air intercooler systems. The Maxflow Power Cooler utilizes a closed-loop water circulation system with a front mounted heat exchanger that allows for effective street operation with minimal boost loss. Gains of 25 to 100 additional horsepower are possible depending on the application, engine, and boost level. This system also allows the use of ice water for drag racing providing even greater performance. Installation is easy, stock ground clearance is maintained, and the optimal placement does not restrict engine radiator airflow.
From the web site...
That particular nipit looks like its designed for a super charger, like I said before, I'm not sure you can fit a dak with just an intercooler..., I only know what I've read about them, maybe with some nice work you could custom fit one... but the gains won't be that big, especially for the cost.
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Zaurusman
GenIII
3/08/2002
15:27:58
| RE: Intercooler w/o a Blower?
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Yeah, that cost is WAY prohibitive.
Hey, what do you think of this?:
Aqua Tune
I know for a fact that the P-38 is NOT the only plane to use water injection...
--
Zaurusman
'98 RC Red Sport V6 5spd 3.21 15x8's
http://www.tiborsrealm.com/Dakota/Index.htm
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alex
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
3/08/2002
15:37:55
|  RE: Intercooler w/o a Blower?
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Actually here's some info on nitrous:
The Hot Rodder’s Guide To Bottled-Rocket Horsepower
By Jeff Smith
Photography: Jeff Smith
One way to judge the popularity of a part or process is by the number of labels it acquires over the years. In the case of nitrous oxide, it has been called squeeze, spray, juice, fast gas, on the bottle, bottle fed or the single-syllable word nos. But no matter what you call it, nitrous oxide injection is the simplest, easiest and cheapest way to go fast that exists in hot rodding today.
What It Does
Nitrous oxide is a gaseous mixture of two parts nitrogen and one part oxygen (N2O). The gas helps make power in two ways. While nonflammable, its single oxygen molecule is used as an oxidizer to allow more fuel to be burned to create more heat and pressure during the combustion process. That is why nitrous must be accompanied with additional fuel. If additional fuel is not added, the engine will run lean, creating excessive combustion temperatures that will cause detonation and, eventually, severely damage the engine.
Nitrous oxide is stored at 800 to 1000 psi as a liquid, but injecting it into an engine converts the liquid nitrous to a gaseous state. That conversion reduces overall inlet-air temperature by absorbing heat, contributing to increased power by making the air/fuel mixture more dense. Inlet-air temperatures can drop by as much as 60 to 75 degrees Fahrenheit during the process. That’s important when you consider that power is increased by one percent for every 10-degree Fahrenheit drop in inlet-air temperature.
During combustion, at a temperature of 575 degrees Fahrenheit in the combustion chamber, oxygen separates from the nitrogen molecules and is available to help burn additional fuel. The nitrogen molecules act as a buffer to combustion, slowing the burning process to a more manageable rate as opposed to a violent explosion that is extremely hard on pistons, rods and crankshafts. That’s why nitrous oxide is used as opposed to pure oxygen.
So, yes, Viper, you're right, it is combustible, but I'd say anything that's going to lower the intake temperature by 75* is pretty similar to running an intercooler with a naturally aspirated engine. That means that the intake air from today in Atlanta will be reduced to 0 degrees Farenheit. Now we're making horsepower.
If you need more info, here's the link to the rest of the article:
http://thundermountainraceway.com/archives/nos.html
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Viper6
Dodge Dakota
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3/08/2002
15:39:46
| RE: Intercooler w/o a Blower?
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WOW, that kicks a$$, I gotta wonder tho, ...
not a bad idea, wonder what the long term effects are...
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Viper6
Dodge Dakota
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3/08/2002
15:45:13
| RE: Intercooler w/o a Blower?
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my post there is for that web site, CHECK THAT OUT..
cool, so it drops the temp too, thats always good...
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R Middleton
Dodge Dakota
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3/09/2002
12:25:30
|  RE: Intercooler w/o a Blower?
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Okay I tried this question out on another non-related thread, lets see what the braintrust here thinks of it.
what would happen if you had a cold air intake using a steel exhaust pipe tube and wrapped it with a coil of A/C plumbing from the cold side of the compressor.
My thoughts are you could run around the pits with the A/C on cooling the intake pipe shut off A/C at the line and still have cooled air due to the cooling effect on the intake charge.
Any thoughts?
Middy.
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CW
GenIII
3/09/2002
12:51:49
| RE: Intercooler w/o a Blower?
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It will work but by how much I don't know.
2001 RC 4.7 5sp 9.25" 3.92 LSD
Ported 68mm TB, IAT adjuster, 3" flowmaster cat back, TPS @ .76V, 4" cold air, Roadmaster active suspention, Removed Third cat, Electric fan Convertion, HO cams.
Working on adjustable fuel pressure with return.
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Zaurusman
GenIII
3/09/2002
13:53:29
| RE: Intercooler w/o a Blower?
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Sounds pretty hokey to me. The CFM of the climate controls compared to the CFM of the engine intake? I'll wager there's a BIG difference there, and the cooling of the intake air wouldn't be that great even if it was running while you were. I think it would fail for the same reason a leaf blower won't cut it as a supercharger - huge difference in air quantity.
Now, anyone have an idea on how to hook up a super-soaker to work in my intake? ;-)
--
Zaurusman
'98 RC Red Sport V6 5spd 3.21 15x8's
http://www.tiborsrealm.com/Dakota/Index.htm
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CW
GenIII
3/09/2002
15:13:50
| RE: Intercooler w/o a Blower?
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No, he is just saying to use the A/C line to cool the home made cold air intake.
2001 RC 4.7 5sp 9.25" 3.92 LSD
Ported 68mm TB, IAT adjuster, 3" flowmaster cat back, TPS @ .76V, 4" cold air, Roadmaster active suspention, Removed Third cat, Electric fan Convertion, HO cams.
Working on adjustable fuel pressure with return.
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conig
Dodge Dakota
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3/09/2002
15:54:09
| RE: Intercooler w/o a Blower?
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water injection has been around since the 60's but you sctually want the water kinda hot so it will turn to steam before it enters the engine. the act of steeming is what cools the intake.
Id look into a real waterinjection system like the ones used for superchargers. they work well on forced induction. I've heard they allow for alot of timing advance cause they almost eliminate detination.
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Hersbird
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
3/09/2002
18:29:21
| RE: Intercooler w/o a Blower?
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There is no way an intercoller would help on a naturally aspirated motor. Most superchargers don't benifit much from them unless they are running a lot of boost. Turbos do have big gains from an intercooler because there is something to cool. To achieve a 200 degree drop in intake temperature you have very hot air coming out of the turbo. In natural aspiration you are not going to cool anything with air the same temperature that is going into the motor anyway! For a heat exchanger to work you need a difference in temperature. Some kind of A/C would work, but you would never get back the power required to run the A/C compressor in the first place. If you have a turbo there are big gains from an intercooler but other wise there is little to be gained and lots to be spent.
I believe the water injection will only help if you are experience detnotation and seeing as how the Dakota with the most radical PCMs controlling the timing get by on 89 or 91 octain there would be nothing to gain here either unless you mechanically increase the motors compression. The water injection worked well on musclecars with lots of compression when you could no longer get the good leaded gas, but the reason water injection would increase power is because it stopped detnoation. As detnotation starts power incease stops. So water injection didn't add any power over that which would be obtained by using better gas in the first place.
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CW
GenIII
3/09/2002
20:26:00
| RE: Intercooler w/o a Blower?
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Message:
They will benefit. If it didn't work how come the engine runs better with cold air taken from outside of the vehicle. If you have a air to water intercooler you can run ice and see even more benefit. Isn't it for every 10° in air temp there is a 2or3% increase in HP.
Cold air is better. N/A or superchraged.
2001 RC 4.7 5sp 9.25" 3.92 LSD
Ported 68mm TB, IAT adjuster, 3" flowmaster cat back, TPS @ .76V, 4" cold air, Roadmaster active suspention, Removed Third cat, Electric fan Convertion, HO cams.
Working on adjustable fuel pressure with return.
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KenDawg
Dodge Dakota
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3/09/2002
21:00:25
| RE: Intercooler w/o a Blower?
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I agree with CW. Colder air is more dense and can compress easily. The more compression the bigger the boom inside the cylinder. Always remember heat expands.
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CW
GenIII
3/09/2002
22:16:14
| RE: Intercooler w/o a Blower?
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The engine is a air compressor. More air more power.
2001 RC 4.7 5sp 9.25" 3.92 LSD
Ported 68mm TB, IAT adjuster, 3" flowmaster cat back, TPS @ .76V, 4" cold air, Roadmaster active suspention, Removed Third cat, Electric fan Convertion, HO cams.
Working on adjustable fuel pressure with return.
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bernd
*GenIII*
3/10/2002
00:54:29
| RE: Intercooler w/o a Blower?
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The Nitrous does work as a pseudo-intercooler. (Trust me on that one - 40HP shot = 60RWHP on the dyno.)
1997 Dodge Dakota SLT - V6
Supercharged/Intercooled @ 10# w/Nitrous
14.55 @ 96.01mph
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Hersbird
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
3/10/2002
11:50:29
| RE: Intercooler w/o a Blower?
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There is no way an air to air intercooler is going to cool the incoming air on a naturally aspirated motor! If you are talking about a water to air, and then using some sort of additional cooling like an ice bucket then maybe, but that ice won't last long and then you get nothing. If your talking about a few 1/4 mile runs then just ice down the whole intake manifold and air intake between runs and save that $2000! On normal air to water intercoolers the water temperature ends up higher then the outside air temperature, so you will actually be heating the air as it comes in the motor. It all works on a turbo because the air leaving the red hot turbo, after it is compressed is over 200 degrees, sometimes way over. So even if the water to air intercooler is 150 degrees it will cool the intake. Same thing with a air to air, if you can drop that 200-300 degree intake down to 150 you are doing good. But there is no way you can drop outside 90 degree intake air with 90 degree intercooler air, and the intercooler is never going to be any cooler then the outside air unless there is some kind of mechanical cooling device (like an a/c unit) which is just going to rob more power then it gives. Or using an ice bucket, which is temporary, especially on the really hot days where it would be most helpful.
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CW
GenIII
3/10/2002
12:00:00
| RE: Intercooler w/o a Blower?
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Message:
Now you are way off track I was talking about using the cold from the A/C to cool the home made intake. Then have a WOT switch in the A/C. You don't run with the A/C on. Pretty simple IMO.
2001 RC 4.7 5sp 9.25" 3.92 LSD
Ported 68mm TB, IAT adjuster, 3" flowmaster cat back, TPS @ .76V, 4" cold air, Roadmaster active suspention, Removed Third cat, Electric fan Convertion, HO cams.
Working on adjustable fuel pressure with return.
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Zaurusman
GenIII
3/10/2002
12:21:54
| RE: Intercooler w/o a Blower?
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Message:
So an intercooler is just a heat exchanger. Interesting... And totally useless to me.
I dunno CW ... that's a lot of air to cool VERY quickly. Do you think the air conditioning could do that? On any truly hot Texas day I keep the fan at one or two clicks just because otherwise the air isn't cooled all the way coming through the system. I can only imagine the volume of air that has my throttle body yelling at me at WOT. And what's the air good for regarding the cab? 20 degrees? That leaves maybe 10 degrees for the engine if volume is double the CFM, meaning 4 or 5 horses, which is less than drives the compressor, isn't it? Where is my reasoning off?
--
Zaurusman
'98 RC Red Sport V6 5spd 3.21 15x8's
http://www.tiborsrealm.com/Dakota/Index.htm
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CW
GenIII
3/10/2002
12:32:54
| RE: Intercooler w/o a Blower?
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The design I am thinking of is like duners fuel cooler. You use the wasted cold off of the A/C accumulator and pipe it via coolant pump from around the accumulator and have a coil of copper in the intake to help cool it down. It is like bernds cool tube. Good idea bernd.
2001 RC 4.7 5sp 9.25" 3.92 LSD
Ported 68mm TB, IAT adjuster, 3" flowmaster cat back, TPS @ .76V, 4" cold air, Roadmaster active suspention, Removed Third cat, Electric fan Convertion, HO cams.
Working on adjustable fuel pressure with return.
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Hersbird
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
3/10/2002
18:07:02
| RE: Intercooler w/o a Blower?
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So is the A/C on at WOT or off? If it's off then it isn't going to cool anything and if it's on it's going to suck a ton of power at WOT, much more then 5hp when turning 4000 RPMs.
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CW
GenIII
3/10/2002
19:19:29
| RE: Intercooler w/o a Blower?
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I give up. There is alot of stored cold in the accumulator and in the lines them selves. They only need to cool for 14 seconds. Jeeze if you don't want to do it then don't. But Bernds cool tube has proven that it works. Once you get the circulated coolant cold then it has alot of stored cold to then be put into the air of the intake. It is a water to air intercooler that uses the A/C to initaly cool the coolant in the intercooler.
2001 RC 4.7 5sp 9.25" 3.92 LSD
Ported 68mm TB, IAT adjuster, 3" flowmaster cat back, TPS @ .76V, 4" cold air, Roadmaster active suspention, Removed Third cat, Electric fan Convertion, HO cams.
Working on adjustable fuel pressure with return.
|
R Middleton
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
3/10/2002
21:48:21
| RE: Intercooler w/o a Blower?
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Since I started this, heres an atempt to sumarize the proposed idea here.
1. Make a homebrew cold air intake out of 6' dia exhaust pipe.
2. Coil a piece of metal tubing around the outside of the entire elbow.
3. Plumb the cold side of the tubing from the AC compressor into the coil around the outside of the homebrew intake tube and back into the regular path of refrigerant.
Thereby using the rifrigerant in the AC system to cool the metalic Z tube and hopefully cool the intake charge. If you were to drive around the pits with the AC on the cooling effect would begin and have the intake pipe cooled by the time you got to the staging lanes. You could then stage, turn off your AC, and enjoy any of the benefits of the colder intake with out sacrificing any HP to the compressor.
I'm just looking for thoughts and many have been provided and I appreciate them.
It is easier to REACT,
than it is to THINK.
Peace.
Middy.
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Hersbird
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
3/10/2002
23:16:09
| RE: Intercooler w/o a Blower?
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I guess I don't know what you are talking about from Bernds, I looked at speedtweaks and saw nothing. Just cooling the outside of a tube would seem to have minimum effect on the air passing through it. If you had a water to air intercooler and chilled a mass of water with the A/C it would stay cold for awhile, and having a large heat transfer surface area with aluminim fins and all, could then cool the intake air. Now though we are talking about a bunch of money again, and with a large cooling water mass we are talking about a bunch of weight as well. It seems like the last thing you would spend money on, to gain those last elusive tenths, only after doing every other normal performance mod first. Intercoolers are really only for offsetting the effects of boost. IMO, the air to water are really only good for drag racing, when you can add ice, and have to be tuned only for that specific task, air to air intercoolers provide a better cooling, evenly and is what every OEM turbo setup uses because of that.
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