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Christophe
Dodge Dakota
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2/01/2002
11:55:18
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 Subject: New diesel generation
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Here in Europe diesel market is growing
constantly. And the german automaker are
doing a fine job to make this market even
bigger.
VW will be producing a brand new 5 liter V10
turbodiesel 313 HP and 750 N/m of torque
(500 ft.lb ?), averaged at around 23-25 MPG,
for the their new luxus sedan, the Phaeton.
Mercedes is also developping a new 5.4L V8
diesel engine with over 300 HP.
I'd love to see such an engine in my dakota!
Is this market also growing over there in the
US? It seemed that putting a diesel engine in
other vehicules than full-size truck is not in
mind.
Christophe
01 Quad Cab 4.7L AWD auto, sport plus, black
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McClane
Dodge Dakota
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2/01/2002
12:04:12
| RE: New diesel generation
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It seems to me that the big three (DC, Ford, GM) all place gasoline engines in everything. Only in full size pickups can you order a diesel (eg. Ram 3500s).
If the Dakota line had a diesel engine as an option, I would definitely prefer that option over the gasoline engine.
Even some of the older toy-yoda pickups had diesels as an option in North America.
I was over in Europe recently, and I did notice that most cars and trucks were diesel powered. I think in N. America, we can't stand the diesel clatter + diesel exhaust smell. As well, gasoline prices are relatively cheap as compared to diesel. I know that petro in Europe is more expensive when compared to diesel.
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Ben E-Farrer
Dodge Dakota
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2/01/2002
14:50:32
| RE: New diesel generation
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I think that desel exhaust fumes smell better than gasoline exhaust fumes.
Desel is 10 cents per liter more than gas here right now.
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Scott
Dodge Dakota
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2/01/2002
21:50:06
| RE: New diesel generation
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Not only that but it cost alot more to maintain a diesel engine than a gas. It would be a must for a person that has to haul alot but for us, I don't think it'd be worth it.
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Ron
Dodge Dakota
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2/01/2002
23:13:36
| RE: New diesel generation
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Most diesels available in Europe won't run on the fuel supplied in North America. The cetane here is too low and the sulfer content is too high.
I have a VW Golf with the TDI diesel. It is detuned for the US and has a distributor fuel injection pump instead of unit injectors as in Europe. Cost of maintenance is on par with a gas engine.
Contrary to popular belief, it is not smokey or loud. It has more get-up-and-go than gas cars with bigger engines. And it gets 45 mpg around town and 60 mpg on the interstate (if I obey the speed limit!)
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Cody Garrison
Dodge Dakota
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1/17/2003
19:42:22
|  RE: New diesel generation
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In the 90's, I lived in Costa Rica where I saw 3
full-sized trucks in 2 years. There are
predominantly Japonese-made, diesel driven,
compact pick-ups and SUV's there. It took
some getting used to, but I eventually grew to
love the idea of a 4x4, compact, 4-cyl. deisel-
driven pick-up (not to mention the first 4-dr.
compacts I'd seen, which I also grew to love
the idea of). True 4x4's need torque more than
horsepower, and I think I speak for most when
I say that gas milage does matter. While
diesels may be more expensive to maintain
than gasers (a fact I'm not entirely convinced
of) diesels don't wear out or break down as
much. Granted, in much of the world, diesel is
significantly cheaper than gas, but not in the
U.S. However when you do the math including
the gas milage savings, diesel comes out on
top.
I'm not knocking gas-powered motors, but I
am saying that the diesel option is worth
offering and it 'd be my choice. A diesel, 4
cylinder, 4 speed, 4 door, 4x4 Dakota. (Oh,
and
I'm aware that Dakota's are mid-sized and not
compacts. But hey, for a tight-wad with diesel
admiration who's living in "Full Size" USA, is
there a happier medium?)
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ZZ
Dodge Dakota
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1/17/2003
22:03:01
| RE: New diesel generation
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Where I live, diesel costs more than unleaded premium. Also, oil changes at the local fastlube cost more for diesel engines. Plus I have to pay more for the diesel engine up front. So where is the savings? Why do diesel engines cost more if they have fewer moving parts than a gas engine? I have heard diesel injector replacement costs are high.
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Diesel freak
Dodge Dakota
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1/18/2003
15:19:51
| RE: New diesel generation
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First of all, the smoothest-running geometric
engine configurations are necessary for diesels,
because things have to be much better balanced
due to the more savage hammering of a diesel
motor. That means 6-cylinder motors, or
multiples of 6's, like 12 or 18-cylinders.
(Vibration-free alternatives, like flat-six
boxer motors like in Porsches or airplanes
aren't really practical in trucks). So,
companies avoid 4's or v-6's or even v-8's or
v-10's for diesels, if they can make a
straight-6 or v-12.)
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Diesel freak
Dodge Dakota
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1/18/2003
15:40:21
| RE: New diesel generation
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Secondly, making diesel fuel (even the
higher-grade European stuff) is less expensive
than making gasoline.
So it should cost less, but other economic
considerations can come into play, like having a
very high local demand for diesel fuel. The oil
companies will just try to squeeze the last
penny possible out of the consumer in some
areas.
Third, diesel engines are normally used in such
a way that most or all of their capability is
being used most of the time. That means running
flat out, pedal floored, most of the time.
Operated this way, they're a lot more efficient,
and stronger and reliable to use over the long
term.(Sort of like turbine engines, too)
But, most americans have substantial
overcapacity in their vehicles (way bigger
gasoline engines than they normally need). Very
few v8-powered US personal vehicles are run at
95% throttle for large stretches of time, like
if you were using a 4.7 Dak to pull maximum
trailer loads up & down hills all day long, at
the same time as carrying a camper.
When you have this kind of overcapacity in light
use, you just don't see the advantages of a
diesel. Especially if you also expect massive
overcapacity in a diesel motor, too.
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mpil1
GenIII
1/18/2003
18:46:16
| RE: New diesel generation
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Also, I don't know about the rest of the country, but where I'm at fuel stations with Diesel pumps aren't easy to come by.
Mpil1
'02 SXT CC, 3.9L, 5-spd, 4x4, Trac-Loc...Not enough Mods Yet!!!
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danny
Dodge Dakota
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1/18/2003
20:57:43
| RE: New diesel generation
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Here's the fact Jack....23,000 psi of fuel pressure AND what your are reading is correct....the Cummins 24 valve HO engine has plenty of power....is not loud like the previous generation.... and with the 6 spd tranny gets d*mn good fuel economy.... considering vw cr*p can't pull more than a full wheel barrel....I'll stay with CUMMINS POWER!!!!
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sandman
Dodge Dakota
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1/18/2003
22:47:53
|  RE: New diesel generation
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It does not cost anymore to change oil in a diesel then it does in a gas engine!!!! They use the same darn oil in non-comerical applications! The filters might be a bit more expensive if they are unique to a diesle only. Most noncomerical diesels used in cars us standard sized oil filters.I am sure I can buy a filter for a cummins for less then $10 which is what some people pay for their gas filters. While the cost of filters might be a bit higher and the crankcase holds more oil they tend to have longer change intervals so it works out just fine. The only item that realy gets changed more often is the water filter for the fuel. They cost a bit more up front $2000-$4000 for the diesel option but they reward you with longe life. Right now DC is giveing a 350,000 mile or 7 year warranty on all HD trucks with the Cummins Turbo Diesel but only 100,000 miles or 7 years with their gas engines. Diesel fuel might cost more up front but because of the increased fuel millage you end up spending about 30% less in gas compared to the exact same usage with gasoline/petrol?benzine!!! GM is working on cleaner, lighter less noisey diesels right now and so is Ford for use in cars. DC already uses a light diesel in the Grand Cherokee in Europe and is going to use it in the minivans soon. As more copanys start offering diesel optons again the gas stations will have more diesel pumps.
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CThomp
Dodge Dakota
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1/18/2003
23:42:54
| RE: New diesel generation
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Plus with the switch to low sulfur diesels the engines will ecome more and more attractive to u.s. buyers. I can't wait to have a diesel in my dak. 30mpg sounds pretty damn good to me.
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Greenmr
Dodge Dakota
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1/19/2003
09:46:22
| RE: New diesel generation
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The only reason the big three don't have diesels in their smaller cars is their respective marketing organizations don't think they weill sell. If you ask anyone not familiar with the trucking industry, the average opinion on diesels is that they are bid, loud, smokey engines. Only recently, with electronic injection and control, can diesels meet the same noise/smoke levels as a comparably powered gas engine.
I'm a bit biased, because I work for Cummins, but I would put a modern diesel against any gas engine and expect it to be way ahead on total cost (purchasing and cost of operation) from start date to overhaul.
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JimmyC
Dodge Dakota
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1/19/2003
12:42:41
| RE: New diesel generation
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Mexico has a diesel version of the Dak already and there was some talk about one here a couple of years ago. Check out my old post "Diesel Dak?". Do a search and you'll find it. There are some links there and some pictures. Jim
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Diesel Freak
Dodge Dakota
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1/19/2003
12:47:09
| RE: New diesel generation
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Mr. G,
What are the differences between the inline-6
Cummins HO engine, (305 hp @2900, 555 ft-lb at
1400), and the new inline-6 Caterpillar 3126E
(300 hp @2400 & 800 ft-lb)?
Why would Dodge do Cummins & not Cat?
http://www.caterpillar.com/industry_solutions/shared/truck_engines/01_truck_engine_info^specs/01_current/3126e/3126e.html
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Diesel Freak
Dodge Dakota
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1/19/2003
13:03:17
| RE: New diesel generation
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Message:
Another question, anyone:
If you can shoe-horn a V10 Viper motor into a
Dak, could you also put a 3126E into the Dak?
Also, what would happen if you put 800 ft-lb of
torque into the 3.55 Dak 5-speed? What might
break first?
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sandman
Dodge Dakota
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1/19/2003
13:20:16
| RE: New diesel generation
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It has been my experince that Cat engines are not very reliable. They have always had head problems and their governers tend to be a serious weak link. Cummins makes the most some of the most durable engines in just about every catagory and class. The Penske new Detroit diesels are also realy good design.
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ZZ
Dodge Dakota
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1/19/2003
19:45:05
| RE: New diesel generation
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Even in Europe today, gas powered cars still outsell diesel powered cars. Why?
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Steve
Dodge Dakota
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1/20/2003
13:48:59
| RE: New diesel generation
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i would love to have a diesel in my dakota for a few reasons. its louder, more torque, and the fumes smell great.
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Diesel Freak
Dodge Dakota
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1/20/2003
20:12:23
| RE: New diesel generation
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Practically, I could see two situations for a diesel in a Dak.
First, to have a small, 4-cyl, relatively torquey, relatively quiet diesel for everyday use with mostly light loads, that will give fantastic mileage and last a very long time. The engine would be working flat out most of the time, but that's OK because diesels can handle it. It would be similar in principle to the VW TDI. It would be a very good replacement for the smallest gas engine now offered for the Dak in the U.S., offering much superior torque and fuel economy and engine life (with proper maintenance).
Secondly, to have a powerful, relatively quiet, and relatively high-strung diesel for a working truck. It would be similar in spec to the present Cummins HO unit, but more advanced. An inline-6, about 350 ponies at 2800 rpm, maybe 600 ft-lbs torque at 2400 rpm; possibly about 6 liters. This would be an expensive option, as diesels have to be because it has to be built very strong and require a few tweaks above and beyond what is normal in this years diesels.
This second engine would be designed to last for a typically long diesel life, and to haul very heavy loads for most of the life of the vehicle. Because large-motor Daks are typically driven aggressively (IMHO) this engine would need the turbocharger and the few extra tweaks that may have already come out of the european truck racing cicuit. Mileage would be somewhat better than the present 4.7 gas, maybe 25 - 30 mpg. Power would be quite high, torque would be incredible, and option cost would be significant.
Don't know if either or both of these would fly in the american marketing space though.
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